Satyagraha: Learning with Ela Gandhi
Our October session of Nonviolence Studies is focused on the study of Satyagraha, and so we were delighted to have a very full and fruitful two-hour session with Ela Gandhi on the subject on October 21, 2026.
Ela, as always, presents an extremely pragmatic approach to engaging with nonviolent action. She makes it clear that the path of nonviolence is open to all of us, because each one of us is called to live with dignity and purpose. While she addresses a wide vision for societal change, her call is fundamentally one of humanization, to cling to our humanity and that of others, whether it’s in our personal lives or facing the growing negative trends of digital life. As her grandfather famously said, when we aspire after the highest vision of nonviolence, “one cannot stay out of any area of life.”
We are pleased to be able to share the session with you here.
Transcript with Timestamps (Linked here and pasted below)
[00:00:00]
well, well, good morning, everybody, and welcome to our virtual Metta Center space. I'm Stephanie, I'm the director of the Metta Center, and, I'm here with Afra Jalabi, who is a board member of the Metta Center, and Ela Gandhi.
and we're here... Who's also a board member of the Metta Center, and we are here to talk today about satyagraha, and to give Ela the stage to share stories and experience and ideas around this important exploration of the power of nonviolence. And, we're very happy to be with all of you today for this important conversation.
Ela will present for, a bit, about half an hour, and then we'll take a pause, [00:01:00] reflect, and come back and have a group conversation where people can ask questions and, she will work to, to answer them. So as we get started today, let's let's do a minute of silence, of quiet reflection, of arriving into this space, and just begin with calming our, our hearts and minds and bodies as we arrive into this space.
Yeah, let's begin our minute of silence.
[00:02:00] take your [00:03:00] last inhale and exhale and arrive into the space
Well, I'd like to first introduce our friend and board member, Afra Jalabi, who's here with us to help host this event. Thank you for being here. Afra is a dear friend,, a scholar of nonviolence, and, she's teaching in Montreal. She's a, journalist, a very deeply principled, activist for nonviolent action There's so much I can say about Afra, but we're just very grateful to have you here with us today as part of this experience, and to have your experiences, especially within the Syrian context, as part of this conversation, Afra.
So [00:04:00] thank you for being here, and I pass the mic over to you. Salam alaikum, everyone. Peace be upon all of you. I just returned from Syria actually, two nights ago, and, in Bangladesh, because I was there for, a conference on the transitional period, because they also brought down a dictatorship. And here we are honored today to be with someone who fought for democracy and rule of law, and who went against apartheid, that we'd think would be part of, of history and would be outdated.
And so I'm, I'm really... It is a privilege to be sitting with the granddaughter of, of Gandhi. And we get, we go a long way because, Ela and I met when we went to Rome to meet the Dalai Lama in, 2005, I think, Ela, right? Yes. And, my uncle, who's also Jawdat Said, a [00:05:00] scholar, on nonviolence since the late '50s who wrote about nonviolence from a Muslim perspective, and he was delighted.
He passed away three years ago at age 92, and he was delighted to meet, to meet Ela because he was also deeply in parallel thinking with Gandhi. Ela Gandhi is a South African social worker, anti-apartheid activist, and lifelong advocate for nonviolence. A founding member of the Natal Organization of Women.
She defied apartheid despite a ban on her political activity in 1975, and was for nine years under house arrest. She went on to serve two terms in South Africa's parliament, representing the African National Congress, beginning in 1994 under Nelson Mandela's presidency, helping to build the democracy she had fought hard to bring into being.
The granddaughter of Mahatma Gandhi, as I said earlier, Ela has carried forward a commitment to nonviolence through community organizing, public [00:06:00] service, and interfaith cooperation. She serves as honorary chairperson of the Gandhi Development Trust and the Phoenix Settlement Trust, president of Religions for Peace International, and a beloved member of our Metta Center here, a board member of our Metta Center for Nonviolence.
We are so happy to be with you, Ela. It is always an honor and privilege, and there is so much to learn from you because the world is going through- All kinds of tensions, and we need the peace, the rationality, and the principled ethic of the the kind of nonviolence then that Gandhi pushed forward, Abdul Ghaffar Khan, and all others on that kind of less traveled road of changing the world by transforming self and other through love and compassion.
Thank you. What a privilege to be with you. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much for inviting me to this session, Stephanie Metta Center, and thanks [00:07:00] for your introduction, Afra. I'm going to focus on three issues. Firstly, Gandhiji's development of a philosophy on which his life was fashioned and which remains a background to the notion of satyagraha.
Secondly, I want to look at the role of media, especially social media, and Gandhiji's ideas. And finally, I will speak about the present situation globally and the place of nonviolence in the present. So the first, one about Gandhiji's development of- Of life. looking at the Oxford Dictionary definition of philosophy, I found that this is what it [00:08:00] said, and I quote, "The study of the fundamental knowledge, reality, and existence, or a theory or attitude that acts as a guide, guiding principle for behavior."
So all of us lead our lives in terms of some basic beliefs that have evolved within us over the years of our learning from parents, from school, from books, from friends and relatives, from our faiths and scriptures, and from our life experiences. Our philosophies thus develop over time, but these beliefs continue to grow and develop and change.[00:09:00]
Most of the time, however, we do not record the actual thought behind our actions. History records our actions, but does not record the thought process that informed the actions. So when we look, for philosophical basis of actions, we need to look deeper into patterns of behavior and then we draw some assumptions on what the thoughts were behind the actions.
For Gandhiji, the essential belief, as articulated by YP Anand in Thomas Vitthal's book Gandhian Sarvodaya, was, and I quote, "Meeting of basic essential needs [00:10:00] and freedoms, physical and moral, of all." So the emphasis is on all meeting these needs This indicates that Gandhiji was concerned about the importance of each and every individual, which is different from many other thinkers who are concerned with particular sectors or the majority, but not all.
Few thinkers do think about all, but most don't think about all. His, Gandhiji's work was directed towards those actions that would benefit everyone. This insistence on all was based on his respect and concern for all, [00:11:00] surpassing the boundaries of race, class, caste, gender, religion, and all the divides that compartmentalize us.
He believed that given an opportunity, each and every one has the potential to excel at whatever activity they choose to engage in, and that life's purpose is to ensure that everyone has those opportunities and no one is left behind He started his first settlement or ashram based on this principle.
His life at the settlement and the principles developed here were the basis of satyagraha and the basis of the philosophical [00:12:00] understanding he developed. A very brief background to this can be seen in key moments, and I'm just gonna run through the key moments. He arrived in South Africa in 1893, and his experiences of the gross discriminations suffered by Black people, and I include all Indian, African, colored, in this country, and developing the idea of protest against injustice.
So he arrived in '83, and he developed these ideas. More about this can be found in his biography. But his colonial thinking at that time led him to believe in the integrity and values of the British. His early [00:13:00] protests were based on writing memos and sending petitions, hoping that it will elicit the desired reaction.
His belief further led him to volunteer to organize an ambulance corps, trained by his friend, Dr. Booth, to serve the British in the two wars in South Africa, the South African War of 1899 and 19- or towards 1902, and the Bambata Uprising in 1906. This experience exposed him to the untold violence, injustice, and inhumanity of the violent confrontations.
Details are again in his biography. [00:14:00] Incidentally, Satyagraha was launched on the 11th September 1906. Realizing that violence was not an option he would like to pursue, he began to look at alternatives and read various philosophers and scriptures that supported his notion of nonviolence. This study led him to see that nonviolence is not just the absence of violence, that it requires a complete change in his lifestyle, thinking, and behavior.
It is a new way of living. Arising from this belief, he felt that he must discard the relatively luxurious lifestyle he had been living and take to a [00:15:00] simple life and self-sufficiency, which which was he considered to be very enjoyable. They lived in simple wood and iron huts, but made to suit their needs and comforts.
Simple attire, often stitched by themselves. They ate food that they grew on the land. They practiced healthcare by ensuring healthy habits in terms of nutrition, fresh air, and exercises. Games, walks, and engaging in essential manual labor were encouraged. This was to seek out ways to enjoy life without having to spend a lot of money In order to ensure that the dignity of work was [00:16:00] maintained, everyone took turns in doing the daily chores necessary for living a clean life and ensuring a clean environment.
There was no hierarchy of work, and everyone accepted responsibilities without feeling that the work was impeding their dignity. Thus, they discarded the gender, class, caste, race, religion, and other biases, and concentrated on protecting the dignity of all. They further learned from living in a rural area the basic respect for Mother Earth and our responsibilities in conserving and protecting our Earth and all its resources.
An essential [00:17:00] feature of daily life at Phoenix was to consider the well-being of the land. As the settlement was based in an area away from the city and had no municipal services, rainwater was harvested in tanks. River water and underground water were tapped for general use. Springs were protected and conserved.
All waste was conserved to make compost by disposing of it efficiently in pits, which were then covered up with soil. In this way, the Earth's fertility was replenished by recycling and effective waste management We learnt that real just peace [00:18:00] requires a transformation in the human heart. It requires us to change the way we see the other, to move from fear to trust, from hatred to compassion, and from separation to cooperation.
This is the spirit in which I was born at the Phoenix Settlement and have tried to carry in my own life. I grew up in South Africa during the years of apartheid. For us, injustice was not an abstract concept. It was part of everyday life. People were separated according to race. Families and communities suffered, and many were denied dignity, freedom, and equal [00:19:00] opportunity.
Like many others in South Africa, I became involved in the struggle against apartheid. These were difficult years. I was restricted in my activities and placed under house arrest and banning orders. My family also experienced pain and loss, but through those experiences, I came to understand more deeply one of the central lessons of Mahatma Gandhi And that is nonviolence is not passivity.
It does not mean remaining silent in the face of injustice. It is a courageous and disciplined way of confronting injustice. The challenge of nonviolence is not simply to resist violence, it is also to resist the [00:20:00] hatred that violence produces within us, and to be able to replace it with love and compassion.
When we are hurt, we naturally want to hurt in return. When we are humiliated, we want to humiliate. When we are treated as enemies, it becomes very easy to see the other only as an enemy, to become consumed with hatred and react violently towards everyone that appears to be like the person we hate.
Consider historically what such anger and hatred has done to our world and, and our communities. But even more, consider if every generation passes its [00:21:00] anger and hatred to the next generation, violence will never end So in our work, we protested always against particular legislation and called for its abolition, not against any people.
This did not save us from apartheid violence or incarceration. We lost many colleagues killed by apartheid forces. This made us more determined to continue, but we did not succumb to hatred, anger, and violence, and this is due to the training and skills we developed at the Phoenix Settlement. This is why Gandhiji's understanding of nonviolence remains so important today.
[00:22:00] Nonviolence is not merely a political technique. It is a way of life that is respectful in the face of provocation, a way of thinking that replaces hatred with love, that sees others as living, thinking beings who are misdirected, a way of behaving that is not impulsive, not retaliatory, and not reactive.
This requires self-control, training to think and behave in a thoughtful way and not impulsively. Carefully studying the situation, understanding the different points of view, gathering facts, not relying on perceptions [00:23:00] are all important aspects of this way of life. Student life does not end with leaving school or university but is a lifelong task.
This change of life- lifestyle was key to the idea of be the change you wish to see Secondly, an into- important aspect of Phoenix Life is also to spread what we learn into the wider society. This led to the development of Gandhiji's ideas on education and his interest in media and its power both to educate and to mobilize.
He wrote about the responsibility of the writer. He [00:24:00] describes three important elements that should be at the back of the mind for every journalist. Firstly, does the piece you write have an educational value? Secondly, does it carry in it some vital, authentic information which would be of benefit to the reader?
Thirdly, will the piece of writing move people into some positive action or bring people together to look at how they can change the situation, a mobilizing effect? He emphasized the need for truth, honesty, and objectivity in all writing. There must be no bias and no false or unchecked information.[00:25:00]
Leading from this belief, he saw the importance of discipline or self-control, or control over the many temptations of the world. He called this Swaraj, or rule over oneself Today, you can communicate across the world instantly. This gives you extraordinary possibilities, but it also brings greater responsibility.
A message can spread compassion, but a message can also spread hatred. A photograph can build understanding, but it can also deepen prejudice. This means that we must understand that technology must be used, used wisely, with ethical [00:26:00] consideration and with great restraint. If we look at the change in the past decade, only with AI, so many innovations, new directions have taken place that my generation is left behind, but the little ones are astute and able to access the new technology.
But are they able to grasp the responsibility that comes with the new technology? Are they able to critically look at what they are exposed to and balance it with the reality around us? Are they willing to physically collect facts as we see them, not as they are presented, and to balance the knowledge from [00:27:00] AI with our own personal experiences and those of others around us?
This is an art that we should cherish and keep close to us, for once we lose contact with the real world around us, we are bound to make big mistakes. Theory and understanding are not static. They develop with new knowledge, and new knowledge must be based on the ground reality and not in any artificial creations.
The third point I want to talk about is understanding the present situation So we are seeing a rising tide of orchestrated divisions based on race, ethnicity, religion, migrants, [00:28:00] et cetera, and a strong push to find scapegoats or people to blame for issues that we are facing, issues of poverty, unemployment, lack of access to basic necessities of life.
A clear understanding is in what we are seeing in relation to wealth and its accumulation in the hands of a few while the large numbers live in dire poverty and suffering. This situation has risen largely because of the greed and corruption that is rife in our society. Lack of concern for the poor, lack of proper planning by authorities who continue to spend more on affluent [00:29:00] areas and less on the poor.
So the problem of inequality grows. They then blame this on migrants because of minority groups and because of destruction and uncaring attitudes of the poor. The problems we face are not because of migrant or other ethnic groups, but are related directly to structural issues that need to be confronted.
I think this understanding of the situation is very important. At Phoenix Settlement, we discuss these issues and groups, in groups to We also have regular interfaith prayers at our gatherings to understand each [00:30:00] other's faiths. We have work programs when people of all races come together and do some voluntary constructive work on the settlement, like painting external walls, planting flowers and vegetable seedlings, and so on.
We also have workshops on small business development, yoga classes, computer training, internet cafe. This coming together promotes better understanding and relationships and helps to counter the,
the used by certain groups to divide us and promote hatred and anger. Gandhiji also taught us that by understanding other faiths, we are able to gain a deeper [00:31:00] understanding of our own faith. For faiths are in the end different paths to the same goal. The creation of Religions for Peace in 1970 was itself an expression of the remarkable idea that religious communities, while remaining faithful to their different traditions, could come together around a common responsibility of maintaining peace.
That idea remains urgently relevant today. Through my own involvement in Religions for Peace, I have learnt that the essential teachings of all our religions is not only the rituals we practice as faith communities, but, but also how we live [00:32:00] Do our beliefs make us more compassionate? Do they make us more sensitive to injustice?
Do they move us to do something to remove the scourge of poverty and suffering? Do they help us protect human dignity? Do they encourage us to care for the Earth? And do they give us the courage to stand with people beyond our own community? These are questions which religions need to ask itself constantly in order to be true practitioners of the faith we belong to Looking at the present situation, we live in a time of tremendous challenges.
Wars continue, violence is increasing in many societies. [00:33:00] Economic inequality remains severe. Racism and discrimination have not disappeared. Women continue to experience injustice. Young people face uncertainty about their future. And while climate change affects everyone, it particularly threatens those who are already most vulnerable.
In such a world, these teachings are crucial as we attempt to turn the pendulum of this vicious cycle away from destruction and towards constructive change. My strong message to you today is never underestimate the power of your own life. Let us remember that every great movement begins with [00:34:00] people who decide that they will not simply accept the world as it is, and are prepared to commit themselves to bring about changes.
But successful people begin by changing themselves to reflect on the new thought that they want to represent, and then they act. In concluding, I want to summarize that Gandhian teachings are contained in the idea of change. There is no blueprint. Each generation, each situation, has to develop its own ideas and strategies in relation to its own realities.
But key to change are three important consideration. Number one, development of thought and [00:35:00] ideas about our whole lives, a holistic vision through the organization of a small group of committed people who will be the change makers Application of these ideas to our own lifestyles through controlled, disciplined living and behavior, which can then be transmitted to others through conscientization.
And finally, the third point, mobilizing the entire community so that together we can bring about the change that we wish to see in the world. A change that we have, we have looked at together and arrived at together. That is the kind of change that we want to see and that [00:36:00] we commit ourselves to. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity and sharing some of my ideas and Gandhiji's notions as I see them.
Thank you so much thank you. Wonderful, Ela. Now I want to print out your, speech and distribute it throughout Montreal and Canada, and of course, down south to our American neighbors. what is amazing about your short presentation is the way you were able to encapsulate and pack so many beautiful ideas, but also that are rooted in reality.
And, and you show how nonviolence is not actually, like, some sort of suspended idealistic ideology, but rather something that is rooted, in the power, as you ended your, your speech beautifully, in, in the power of our own lives and, and reclaiming our agency, in our everyday [00:37:00] acts. you mentioned in the middle of your presentation how, like, with the beginning of this AI age, you feel left behind.
I wanna tell you, no, you are act- we are the ones left behind. The ideas you're putting forward actually are very futuristic, and they point towards a new ... a paradigm shift in, in our historical trajectory, Ela. you are pointing towards a new possibility of being in the world, a new mode of relating to self and other, because we have been caught up in the paradigm of overcoming others instead of cooperating with each other.
So therefore, all the things you talked about are extremely important, realistic, and it's always ... I'm always amazed when I look at my writings of my uncle, and when I look at the writings of Gandhi, and all people who worked seriously on the principles of nonviolence, how they were also very much environmentalist, and how they also emphasized the [00:38:00] principles of frugality.
And these are extremely forward-looking and tools of resistance in an age where consumerism and global inequalities reign supreme. And, and I, I have to, to quote again a sentence you, you, you said. You said, "To enjoy life without spending too much money." It, it may sound like- A very innocent sentence, but it is powerful because we are our youth, and the world is being convinced that you need so much money to be happy and to have fun.
And all these nonviolent activists have shown us that actual love and living through compassion is far more, much more fun. And I would like to end with a quote by Wittgenstein, Ludwig Wittgenstein, the British, the British linguist, a British-Austrian linguist, who said that we live in an age where humans are being convinced that they have other needs, and they're being made to forget the actual needs they have.
And with that, he meant that [00:39:00] community, love, compassion are the actual needs we have. And when we are alienated and estranged from that, we seek pleasure and happiness elsewhere. Thank you so much. It was really an amazing talk, and you, you captured a lot in a short time. Thank you, as always, Ela. Thank you.
Yeah. I'm, I'm reminded of a quote from Gandhiji in his autobiography where he says, basically a satyagrahi cannot keep out of any area of life that this ... Which I feel like you really truly did cover so many different areas, and, and yet there's these themes that recur, including the self-development constructive program in satyagraha nonviolent resistance.
And in your own life, you're... It's, it's... It was so wonderful to see, you know, here's a bit of history of Gandhiji, and then you're thrown into the anti-apartheid [00:40:00] struggle and under house arrest. It, it was... It, it's, it's sort of a dramatic leap from Gandhi, you know, working and at the settlement to your, you know, to bringing you into the picture.
I'm really interested in that work of, resistance that took place in the anti-apartheid struggle at, at, at that time. I believe these struggles continue, as we all do. so when you were under house arrest, what forms of mutual aid constructive program were taking place, in your, in your life, I-I- in society that were helping people get the things that they, that they needed while also continuing resistance while being repressed?
Okay, yeah. So, during the years that I was, [00:41:00] under house arrest, I was still allowed to go to work, and my work as a social worker took me into communities. I was so blessed that I had a nice job like that instead of being a factory worker where I would perhaps only be in one place and meet only those people.
I was able to go out into the community and meet people who had problems, and, you know, to look at how we can solve these problems. So there were, you know, that conscientization aspect that I, I spoke about. That was avaElable to me even though I was under house arrest. I could still go out, meet, teach, learn, educate, and educate myself about things.
And so those, [00:42:00] you know, activities continued even though under very difficult situations, but it continued. And, so during that time, besides myself, there were lots of people who were also under house arrest and, you know, also in detentions and so on. But the struggle continued, and the mobilizing continued.
It may not, you know, you may not see it in big, you know, marches or anything like that, but the, you know, understanding was developed. Why am I suffering? What are the things, issues behind the suffering? And we interrogated those issues and found that at the end of it, it's all [00:43:00] structural issues which can be confronted.
And I'll give you just one example since I think we have some time. you know, there was a community that, didn't have water. there was no water being sent, to this community, very poor community, but they were not given, piped water. And they didn't have access to rainwater. Nobody, you know, because they didn't collect and things like that, like we did at Phoenix Settlement.
So the, you know, the, the result was that, time again, time and again, people would go and confront the authorities, and they will say, "Yes, we will bring water to you." But then years go [00:44:00] by and nothing happens. So then we decided that let's show these people what are the consequences to the community. So we had a health screening program because one of the consequences we realized could be that because there was no water, many people went and had a bath in a stream that was nearby, and that stream was infested with the bilharzia, you know, germ, I think it's called or whatever.
so it was, we thought that if we can show that this is what is happening to this community, and raise the issue, and begin to, you know, get people feeling, you know, guilty about not [00:45:00] giving them water, as a result of which this is what is happening to the community. That would be a way in which we could bring about changes.
So we had this health screening program, and as we had suspected, we found almost 90% of the people there had bilharzia. And this sufferings small children getting bilharzia and suffering from this. we then published this, findings, and as a result, not long after that, water was supplied to the community.
So that was a victory, and every time a community has, you know, experiences a victory, small victory, but they experience the victory, they begin to feel that, [00:46:00] you know, we can protest, we can do something ourselves. It empowers them. It makes them realize that they have power within them because the health screening, whilst doctors came from outside, voluntary doctors, but the whole organizing was done by the community.
They brought the people. They explained to the people why it was important to come to the health screening and, you know, they volunteered to take down the details. So we did a whole... We had a, questionnaire which was looked at the socioeconomic conditions of the people as well as their educational background, everything.
So, you know, it was a research project which the community [00:47:00] undertook, and they shared their own statistics with each other, which was an important, you know, achievement for them. So yeah, that's just a small little story, but these were replicated in many different ways in different communities, and we brought the different communities together for bigger, you know, demonstrations and so on.
So small communities organizing local areas later on come together in bigger organizations because in the end, everyone has a simElar problem, problem
Yeah. That's why, you know- Well, I, I know that Gandhiji, he said that if he was, to have any different job than a lawyer, he wanted to be a nurse. [00:48:00] And so that emphasis- Yeah ... on, on health- Yeah ... is deeply integrated into his vision for nonviolence too- Mm-hmm ... which is often not spoken of. So it's, it's very interesting.
Mm-hmm. I want to invite others, if you have questions now and, and our, as our participants here, you can raise your hand or you can type your question in and we will ask it to Ela, or call on you. Afra, I'm sorry I interrupted you. You were gonna say something. No, I was just going to say that it's, it's, it's impressive to see the actual, application of the ethical kind of nonviolence that Gandhi embraced, that it was very much, like, rooted in reality and in healing and providing clean water and dealing with the, the conditions.
And I really liked when Ela said that, that there are serious structural issues that face us when it comes to injustices and economic inequalities, and yet she also said we can face them, [00:49:00] and, and she provided this example as a practical approach. And, and this is really inspiring. We need to, to think of this way because we have kind of a bit of a victimology where we feel structural issues are overwhelming, we can't do much about them, and you're going counter to that.
You're showing us that, no, our small actions on the ground make a huge difference in shifting these structural inequalities, and I think this is extremely important and really inspiring to all of us.
That's... I really enjoy, learning from Ela because she's always so practical, and it's makes you feel like, "I I can do that." Yeah. We have two hands up. and the order I saw them were Tor then Mickey. So Tor, please, and then Mickey, you are in the stack. Morning, everybody. Ela, you mentioned that there were principles that Gandhi tried to [00:50:00] pursue before he considered writing anything publicly.
If you don't mind, could you just briefly restate them? Okay. I'll just go back to that part Oh.
Okay. So the first one was, does the piece that you write have an educational value? So again, there was a story about this, you know. Gandhiji was traveling on a ship once, and there were some young people on the ship, and they wanted to, you know, write something and just to pass time. So they decided to bring out a little [00:51:00] leaflet, and they wrote a lot of scandals.
It was called Scandal Times. And for fun, they wrote, stories about different people and what they were doing on the ship and everything. And, they, they brought this, leaflet to Gandhiji to see. You know, to just tell us his opinion. Gandhiji read this, and there were a few typed sheets together, and they were held up with a pin, you know?
yeah. So he took out the pin and returned the papers to them, and then they said, "So, what do you think?" You know? And he said, "I've taken the most precious thing from your writing." And that was the pin. So, you know, it mustn't be scandalous and [00:52:00] useless writing. It has to have some value, educational value.
Second point is, does it carry in it some vital, authentic information which would be of benefit to the reader? Some information that would help the reader. And the third point was, will the piece of writing move people into some positive action, or bring people together to look at how they can change the situation?
A mobilizing effect. Again, this has a, ... It can move people to positive action, but writing can also move people to negative action. For instance, if you write a whole lot of things about, you know, about [00:53:00] communities for instance, about migrants, about, racial communities, it can raise a whole lot of racism, emotions against migrants.
We are seeing this in my country, I'm seeing it. You are also, I'm sure, all over the world we are experiencing these prejudices that arise, and many of them start with little writing, with little pieces that go out. And now we have social media, and you see so many little clips passing around, and the clips have messages which are very negative.
So Gandhiji would be very opposed to those kinds of messages. I think those three points come up, and they were described in Bhattacharya's book. [00:54:00] Bhattacharya wrote about Gandhiji's, you know, experiences as a journalist, and, that story I said too was in that book Thank you. Yeah, I, I know that also he, he said about his writing that it was such a deep discipline for him, that if he found that there was even a word in there that could lead to a sense of disrespect of the person that he's writing to, he would wait until he could write it in a way where he...
it was that, that sentiment, that intention was removed. That he used writing as a kind of a practice also to just see where his state of mind was. Yeah Nikki Hello. What an honor and a pleasure to be here. [00:55:00] I have actually two questions. I don't know if that's okay. I have one small theoretical question and one very personal question.
Stephanie, can you give me guidance? yes. go ahead and start with the first- Okay ... start with, yeah. Ela says yes. Okay, great. So the theoretical question is, in my experience, having looked at my own life and the life of others who have committed to non-violence, I've come up with an odd conclusion, and I want to see if that resonates with you, which is that if you seriously commit to non-violence, in a funny way you become a traitor for every cause, because you don't take sides.
And I'm wondering, and you start being seen by different sides as if you're siding with the other side because you don't take sides. And I'm [00:56:00] wondering if that matches your experience, and if you have any wisdom, to share about that
Okay. And the second one? Mm? The second one is a, it's a very personal question. It's not related to the first one. Okay ... it's, shall I say it? Yeah. Please do. So, yeah. So sometimes there's mystery in life, and this call is scheduled today just a few hours before I am going on an extremely difficult call to engage with someone who sees me as public enemy number one in a certain context.
It doesn't really matter what the context is. It's a question of how, what advice do you have for me about how to show up in such a [00:57:00] context? How to find the line of care for this person and opening my heart and sharing what is true for me, knowing that at any moment he might say something about me that will be really hard to take in.
That line, if you have any, any thoughts about it. Just because it happens to be on the same day, it occurred to me to ask
Okay. Okay, so for the first one, you know, it is, it is sometimes very difficult, to, To remain neutral. And, and I don't think that anyone is really neutral. Because if we look at the structural, you know, violence that we all experience and which is what we [00:58:00] are fighting against- Mm-hmm ... then we are taking sides.
We are not neutral, because we are taking the side of truth. Mm-hmm. And if we constantly remember that this is the truth, not just as I see it, but as everyone sees it, and, and because before we decide to take any action, we have discussed it within our group to understand it better, to understand the truth better, so why, you know, what is the, the reality in the situation?
So as long as, you know, we can, keep to that, you know, we, we sort of, support that reality, what [00:59:00] everyone else says doesn't, shouldn't make a difference. Because the most important thing is that if you are truthful to yourself, and you feel that what you have done is the right thing, then, you know, you, you should become confident with that reality, with that understanding.
Because within you, once you develop that understanding, then you develop self-confidence as well. Mm-hmm. And that self-confidence makes you understand that this is the, you know, this is what you are trying to do. And if anyone else says that you're a traitor or something, you don't have to take, you know, that as, as an insult.
You just say that, "This [01:00:00] is what I believe in," and- May- Yeah. So- Okay ... may I bring in a specific example? For example, when- Okay ... Thich Nhat Hanh had to go to exile, because he was carrying both for... I, I don't know the details, but even if you stand for something and against certain things- If you remain caring towards everyone and see the humanity of everyone, then even the side that you are for can see you as siding with the other.
And so he ended up like needing to leave to to, continue living. So it's not just about confidence, it's about sometimes real danger
உம் Yeah, so, you know, a lot, [01:01:00] I mean, I don't know, the kind of group that the person belonged to because, we also have many different, you know, groups that, participate in, you know, nonviolent action or in protests against certain injustices. You have a group that is protesting against that injustice, and if there is an understanding within that group, clear understanding of what do we stand for and how is it that we are going to, you know, indicate our, discontent with what is happening If that is discussed within the group, then I [01:02:00] don't see any problem, arising.
But if there is a group which is very adamant, very ... In a sense, maybe there is, traces of violence within that group, and that's why they feel that, you know, this person has, is a traitor, betrayed them in some way by showing mercy towards another person. Because showing mercy to people, being compassionate, is not being a traitor And this, I think within your group, one needs to establish that I had, issues like that.
You know, we, we had, ... When we [01:03:00] participated in our protest action, you know, in South Africa they had a group called the, the Special Branch. The Special Branch were like, you know, they would come to intimidate you, they would visit you, they would, make searches. Now, in my case, you know, there was a time when my husband was also, you know, banned and was arrested many times, and he was arrested on, for treason.
on a technicality they were released, and the day they were released some people felt that, you know, it would be important for them not to be rearrested, and so they [01:04:00] took them into hiding. So my husband was in hiding until, you know, the appropriate time when they would come out, which they chose as the day that, you know, there were these, dummy elections for the Tricameral Parliament that was introduced in South Africa.
And the day that those people were going to be, inaugurated into this, dummy parliament, that's the day they decided to come out and take refuge in the British Consulate. Now, during the time that they disappeared, the police came to us, the families of the people who had disappeared, and we were, you know, interrogated.
They said to me that, "You must know [01:05:00] where your husband is. How can you not know? And you will only talk when you see pieces, your husband cut up into pieces and brought here," and things like that. And you know, my children were small. They heard this and they were very traumatized by, this kind of talk about what's gonna happen to my husband if I don't tell them where he is.
And I remained quiet and calm. I listened to everything. I answered their questions to the best of my ability. And when they started saying these things, I didn't want to respond to them with, You know, abuse or anything like that. I kept quiet and I said, "Okay, I give you my telephone now, and let me [01:06:00] phone your wife and ask her where you are today.
Would she know that you are here in my house, terrorizing us in this house? Does your wife know about this?" And that quietened him immediately, and they left. But, you know, the thing is that, silence and courtesy doesn't mean being non-assertive. You can still be assertive. You can still exercise your right, but in a respectful way And so, you know, we have to think about the particular circumstance and see how can we deal with this.
And there has to be some way in which you can, you know, stand up for your own rights but in a respectful way, [01:07:00] and not just, abandon, the, you know, the things that you are standing up for. That's the one situation. And then I think that also applies to the second question because your own self-confidence, your own, you know, the, the ability to stand up for your rights is very important, and you have to practice it.
And these things don't happen. Sometimes we lose it. Sometimes we become angry. And I can't say that I've always been successful There are times when you lose that, you know, composure. But when you practice and when you ask, you know, get that spiritual [01:08:00] strength, because for me, spirituality was an important thing.
I know that many people don't believe, but the strength comes from somewhere. If it's not spirituality, it's some other place. But, you know, you have your own way of developing your own personal strength and your personal, you know, just your own, self-respect, because that is very important. So if you have that and you, you go to the situation with a calm, cool mind and tell yourself you're not going to be provoked, because people do provoke you.
You know, just, recently when we had this migration, [01:09:00] migrants problem, there was a march and they, the, these migrants were living on the pavement, and the marchers were coming to, you know, to, to make sure that they get off and go, go back home. And they were camping outside the home affairs offices.
They wanted to go home, but, and they had no home because these people had destroyed their houses. So the day they were going to come, you know, we were told that there's going to be violence. So we said, look, the best thing is for religious community, for religious leaders to make a line, a human chain between the migrants and the police and [01:10:00] the, marchers, because the police were also not helping the migrants.
So we made this line, and we got all of us dressed up in our, you know, to show that we are religious leaders. And so people wore their colors and their, clothes and so on, and then we all stood arm in arm there. So these people came, and they threw stones, and people wanted to disperse, but we said, "No, stand.
You can't disperse. If we get hurt, we get hurt, but this is provocation." They threw insults at us, and we just stood. We didn't retaliate. We didn't answer. We stood, and that [01:11:00] eventually made them return. It made the police not act, indiscriminately, and the people were safe at that time. They didn't get hurt or anything.
So it shows that, you know, that determination to do something is not just... You know, we could have been hurt. The stone could have hurt us badly. fortunately, we didn't, it didn't strike us. So, you know, the insults could have, caused people to, retaliate, say something, and if you start saying something, that's the beginning of violence because violence is in communication as well, and that's why your communication must be nonviolent as well.[01:12:00]
And I think that those are some of the things, the instruments that help us. nonviolent activists also have to undergo training like soldiers have to, and they also have weapons like soldiers have, and these are some of the weapons to be able to, to talk respectfully in front of provocation and, disrespect.
I hope that helps you. I don't know. I'm not an authority. I think there are the people here as well. If anyone else wants to say something, please do. Thank you. I think I'm, I'm easily able to map what you are saying into my internal framework, which the way I [01:13:00] like to think about it is surrounding the patriarchal field with love, and when I'm able to do that, then sometimes magic happens.
Mm. Develop your matriarchal feelings, too. I'm sorry. Say that again? Because they are just... Develop your own matriarchal feelings, because they are just as powerful as the patriarchy that we confront. Yeah, that's why the, that's where the love comes from, is- Exactly. Mm ... the, the, the different way of coming together, the soft qualities, what, what women have been able to retain despite several thousand years of what has been done in the world, little bits.
When we can come together, then that's when I see us able to surround whatever is happening with enough love to melt it rather than [01:14:00] smash it. That's my framework, which seems like very much matching, just different language. So thank you. Wish you all the best. Thanks. Thank you. okay, in the lineup I see Priyanka, then Anna, then Cassie.
Priyanka was, I think, the first two, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Priyanka- Yeah ... Anna, Cassie. Yeah. thank you, Ella. So it's so beautiful to meet you. you're the first person I've met who was connected to Gandhi, so it's really a privilege. Yes ... and thank you to the Metta Center to organizing this. I, I was very curious about you when you shared the interfaith gatherings, and I'm, and I'm very curious because in India, as you may know, there's been a lot of years of divisive, politics, and- Yeah
I met a auto driver once, and he told me, "I had, when I in my childhood, friends who were Muslim have have stopped [01:15:00] speaking to me-" Mm ... because of this, what's going on. It really broke my heart, and I was thinking of creating gatherings where I can bring people together and, like, we can, we can find some...
I was thinking of doing it by finding commonalities in our faith, like all faiths say the same thing. I'm just wondering, what is your approach, in these interfaith gatherings? How do you organize them, and how do you bring people together? That's more important. How do we bring these people who are othering each other together in one place so we can create that- So, the one thing that we've learnt is that, when you bring them together on, common issue, you know, something that confronts them as well as you, it's a common issue.
They would come together with you [01:16:00] to tackle, say, you want to, build a school, for instance. Bring people together around that school. School is a neutral ground. It's for everybody. And, bring people together to discuss how we're going to build the school or what we're gonna do. And in that, situation, you can have discussions about, your faith.
Ask them to, each group to say a prayer in their language, in their culture, whatever, you know, how they want to say it. And then explain to the people what they have said. What does the prayer mean? And, you know, how does, how is this prayer related to the scriptures that they, [01:17:00] they read? And if each group talks about it, you begin to learn about each other, begin to appreciate what, you know, what they say, and you begin to learn that maybe the language is different.
Maybe the style is different. Maybe the way they, you know, express it is different, but the meaning is the same. So at the end of the day, all faiths are saying the same thing, but in different ways. And it's only when you begin to, you know, explaining these things that you realize, because then you can then say, "Hey, you know what?
We also have a prayer exactly like that." And then you can recite your prayer and explain how your prayer, you know, [01:18:00] what it says. So it's one of the ways in which you can bring communities together and have these discussions in, a non-threatening environment
Any... Okay. Priyanka? Okay.
Anna then Cassie. And Anna is a board member of the Metta Center. Welcome, Anna. Good to have you. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, Metta Center and Amma. Good to see you again. By the way, Priyanka, I just posted something in the chat, about interfaith network that I'm, familiar with as well. Ella, I might have shared this with you before, but one of the things, from Gandhiji's [01:19:00] teachings that resonates with me the most is this concept of, you know, everything starts with changing ourselves first, and that's the most important sort of endeavor, in, nonviolence.
And, I think, you know, it resonates with me because it really aligns with my Buddhist concept as well. but, and also it's so simple at times that's probably the most challenging. And, even in my, you know, Buddhist, leadership, when people bring up, you know, their challenges, interpersonal relationships, for example, whenever we bring up time, you know, it starts with changing ourselves.
Sometimes it's not taken well, you know, because, people go to this place of, "Well, how is it that I have to change when it's the other person that's hurting me," right? so we were just having this conversation with my colleague, you know, even when, you know, in intergroup or interreligious or even, you know, interstate conflicts, it is sometimes [01:20:00] challenging to share, especially people who are oppressed or hurt to say that we have to change ourselves first.
So I was just wondering if you had any experience in that regard and if you had any insight about that. Thank you. It's so What I think is, you know, when Gandhiji said, change, you know, be the change you wish to see in the world. I think what he was talking about is that if you are teaching people to, to love each other, and if your attitude is one of hatred or, you know, antagonistic attitude towards the people that you are talking to, then you, your message will never get across.
In a very simple way, [01:21:00] you know, if you are telling your students or, or anyone, "Stop smoking," and yet you smoke, will you be successful in getting them to stop smoking? So that is the idea of be the change you want to see. So if you're telling somebody to do something, do it first yourself. Be that change yourself, and then tell other people to do that.
But, you know, what you are talking about is interpersonal relationship and where two people, you know, they have differences and then, you know, you, you feel that why should you change and the other person not change [01:22:00] to come halfway or to do something in order to bring about that change. Now, that is a completely different situation, and I think in a situation like that, one has to dialogue, and that is what conflict resolution is all about, where you sit down and you talk and through the talk you begin to realize that there are certain things that the other person is saying is, you know, is true, and there are certain things that you are saying that are true, and how can you now come together and meet each other halfway so there isn't a complete change on one side or the other.
There's a give and take, and that's what dialogue is all about. [01:23:00] So I would suggest that in situations like that, it's a question of dialogue. It's not a question of saying that you change in order to keep peace. That's not real peace. Peace is with justice And justice is about looking at what is the right, what is the correct thing to do
That's interesting you say that. I mean, I absolutely agree, and thank you so much. I think how I take this concept of changing yourself is also sort of what you were sharing earlier about, like, ridding yourself of hatred. Like, you know, even if I have good intention, if I have just even a tiny remaining of anger or hatred or discrimination, I need to challenge that, as I go into dialogue, as I go into conversation.
And I really [01:24:00] feel when I do that inner change, there is this amazing power that comes across that can also influence the other people. of course- Absolutely ... sometimes it's not the way, you know, it, it may not work the way that we expect. Maybe it's more powerful, it's more profound, but, yeah. But sometimes I think that even that concept is a little challenging to communicate.
So that's why I wanted to bring it up. Thank you, though. Yeah. I- I'd like to say something on this, and, and sort of develop it a bit also, because I think we're also talking about methods of struggle, and, in in this rise of authoritarian takeover globally, moving toward, fascism, what Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor called end times fascism.
the [01:25:00] resistance movements often pick up the means of authoritarians, which is to, to use violent means, to use destruction to, as, as the voice. And because of the power imbalance, it seems that it's okay to pick up those means, because... But in- if we look at it from a different perspective, all it's doing is echoing, imitating the, the voice of the authoritarian movement, of the fascist movement.
It's saying violence, violence works. And so then when the power imbalance changes, how can the public feel safe that those who have now, who are now in power aren't going to continue to imitate that fascist voice, that authoritarian voice who believes in violence as the way of [01:26:00] solving our problems? And so I, I just kind of pinning it back down into the space of when we commit to non-violence, that's changing ourselves too, right?
This... In, in, as a, as a movement. And, Eli, I give it back to you in, in that way if you wanted to say anything else there, or Anna. Yeah, I agree with you entirely, Stephanie. I think it's, you know, it's very true because like Gandhiji said, you know, that, when we, you know, when we are, confronting, an issue in the community, we cannot, once we get the power to make changes, if we imitate the person or if we become like them, then we've done nothing.
We've brought about no changes. [01:27:00] A real change is when there is a real change all around, in attitude, in everything. So, you know, when people want to, want to make a change, they have to drop the idea that change of leadership, but not change of what they did to us. They can remain, you know, the, the actions remain the same, but you have different faces.
That is not change. It's not justice either. How do you, you know, bring about a just change in society? That is what we need to look at. So that's why, I mean, for instance, in South Africa, we had the [01:28:00] Freedom Charter, which the community came together and wrote out some of the basic things that they want to see in the new government when the new government comes in.
But, I mean, sadly, it's not practiced, but a community did speak and did write So from time to time, one can hold that up and say that this was our, you know, notion of freedom. Why have you not kept to that? In Hind Swaraj that Gandhiji wrote about, he has gone into detail about this, whole issue of what change means
And to a large extent, change means rule over yourself. [01:29:00] It's, control over yourself Because if you carry out your duties, the rights of other people would be met It's when we refuse to carry out our own duties that other people's rights are violated
Yeah
Thank you. I hope that's, yeah Beautiful, Ela Thank you Also empowering
We have a lot of power within us, each one of us. We only have to realize that
So true. Mm-hmm I believe Cassie is next [01:30:00] Thank you, Stephanie. I, I know time is running out, so I'll be short. I just really want to thank you, Ela, for bringing up religion, because you remind me of the very end of the autobiography of Gandhi when he said that, "In all humility, if people think that religion has nothing to do with politics, they don't know anything about religion."
And then he went on to say, "Nonviolence will remain as an empty dream without self-purification," which is like what Anna is talking about, a change of heart. And so for you to keep reminding us that religion is extremely important because love is a mysterious [01:31:00] power, and I just really, really want to thank you for not, you know, like giving up on that understanding, to reminding us how important it is.
And so I am actually wanting to speak because I want to speak to Mick, Miki, if I speak your name correctly, knowing that you are going to face your enemy or it is so divine that we met today, because I want to share with you that I work in a very dangerous country, and I have been attacked many times.
And I just want to share with you that today my thoughts and my prayers will be with you today, knowing that to show up to your people that disagree with you or even want to attack you is a dangerous thing, and but to show up, to show up at all is so courageous. And [01:32:00] to love until it hurts, then there'll be no more hurt, only more love.
And I hope that you will be able to get understanding today with people that disagreeing with you, and my thoughts will be with you today. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's really very touching to receive
Thank you
Thank you
Well, Afra, I wonder if you have, something that you'd like to, to say here? Some- I really, yeah, I really appreciate Ela's, philosophical underpinnings, the way she, [01:33:00] she presented the idea of nonviolence, but also like the practical examples she gave on how to act from a place of self-agency and self-empowerment and self-respect.
Because only then when we're not feeling threatened can we reach out to the humanity in, in the other. And you reminded me of also Gandhi's own writings when he talked about this issue, how- It's not about the identity of the other, because that's, we tend to do that, like self and other, good and evil. And we- Mm
cast the other kind of like the evil other, the repugnant other. And for Gandhi, like he was particularly inspired by a verse in the Quran that some scholars even also, like we have SheEla McDonough at Concordia, who was one of the veteran scholars, who was one of the first [01:34:00] Islamic scholars in Canada, women scholars on, on Islam in Canada, and she was very much interested in Gandhi's interaction with other religious communities and particularly the Muslim tradition.
And he chose the verse,
Cooperate in compassion and goodness, and do not cooperate on evil and wrongdoing." And, and in that, he found that it's not about the other. It's rather acts and stances. So we don't paint the other side completely as evil. We select positions and events and things we can cooperate on and things we don't cooperate on.
And then that creates a whole different dynamic in the way we interact in situations of animosity, because then the other is not an enemy. The other is an adversary. We, we, we live, as [01:35:00] Chantal Mouffe, the Belgian theorist, said, we need to, to create a political realm of dialogue and interaction, even with whom we disagree with.
So instead of antagonistic politics, she puts forward agonistic politics, where the other is an adversary and not an enemy. And I think that's what, Ela, beautifully you put forward, that we do not think of the other as enemy, but as another human being who comes also perhaps from suffering and a certain worldview, and we need to reach that side.
But I also love how you, you focus on the importance of self-empowerment, because I think we lash out when we feel threatened. I really appreciated how you emphasized- Mm-hmm ... even the importance of matriarchal power, the the feelings of big mama and protectiveness and, and being pro-life, like in the sense, not pro-life in the political sense, but pro-life in the sense of preserving the [01:36:00] dignity and, and life of the other side.
That, and of the environment, and of all living beings. And, and, and I loved how you said, I wrote it down here, of thinking of the others as living and thinking beings, because we tend not to think of the other as- someone who thinks, who reflects, who, who, who comes from pain. And so we need to see the humanity in other side, and we seek to see the evil also within ourselves and, and our ability to reject and cause harm, and we tend not to do that.
We tend to see the other as the cause of harm and ourselves as the innocent side. So it's, it's good to rotate these, these sides. So very, very much appreciated the way you have, you have taken us out of that antagonistic realm into an agonistic realm where we could still have differences, where we could take different positionalities on issues while still insisting on, on dialogue and [01:37:00] interaction and changing the dynamics from animosity towards a dialogical dynamic.
It's really, really important and because people tend to think that nonviolence is wishy-washy and then we just agree all, like, on one thing, and it's not that. It is the ability to maintain difference and, and disagreement, but where we manage these disagreements, where new meaning arises. I'm very much influenced by the work of Hans-Georg Gadamer, the German philosopher, who said that new understanding and new meaning arises in intersubjectivity.
Because we tend to move and orbit within our field of knowledge and experiences. Only in encountering the other could we step into a new level of meaning. Only in encountering otherness can we be creative because our ideas could be challenged. And so it is really important what you're saying about dialogue, Ela.
It's, because it's not just, like, stepping out of conflict, but, but it is an opportunity to [01:38:00] also be transformed ourselves in that, in that encounter with the other. Mm. Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very important
You really inspired us today, Ela. Thank you so much. especially with practical examples and things that we can all do in our day, day-to-day existence Thank you We, we, we do have a, a little bit of time left. I have a question for you that, that ties into the last thing you said about using our lives.
And I... And, and it's something that's been weighing on my heart and mind a lot, because I found a lot of different people, sharing a simElar sentiment in nonviolence, and that's the sense that, [01:39:00] even, even the most committed people that you, you know, you... Everything that you're doing, you're, you're, you're aiming in some way to help break apart the violence system and to...
You're, you're working so deeply on all of this, and I think that many of us in this space can identify with how passionate we are about making, building a better world. And then feeling like there's no, there's not enough progress, that, that we're not effective, that we, we have... We're not... That our, that our sacrifices don't end up meaning anything.
and it can become very disheartening to be, to be here and to be in the space of nonviolence. And so- But then I think about how, well, you know, [01:40:00] Gandhiji didn't get involved in the struggle really until he was thrown off a train, and he didn't see that coming, right? So also- Yeah ... we don't know what life is going to ask of us.
You didn't, your own experience, you know, getting... Being the granddaughter of Mahatma Gandhi is one thing, but then getting involved to the extent that you have is something different. So how do you, how do you combat despair in this work? How do you, how do you see this, the need to use our life for this purpose without becoming fully disheartened and feeling lost?
I think, you know, firstly, yes, Gandhiji, you know, that experience of his [01:41:00] being thrown out of the train and all the, humiliating experiences he had in South Africa was the catalyst that made him think about doing something. So I think with all of us, we have some catalyst that makes us want to do something, and when we have that, you know, that urge that, "Now I've reached the end, I've got to do something."
It, it brings about a commitment, a mental commitment to doing something. Now, Gandhiji, you know, we take his example. He was thrown off the train in, when he arrived soon after he arrived in 1893, [01:42:00] and his first action was, you know, the following year, and that was against, the fact that they wanted to remove Indians from the voters roll.
And so he urged them to take action against that, and at that time he thought of petitions and, you know, like I said, because he had faith in the government that if he sent a, a memorandum or petitions, they may change their mind. But then he realized that you need to do much more than just write memorandums and, you know, send petitions.
And that took how many years? It was only in 1906 that the first Satyagraha campaign started. SimElarly, in [01:43:00] India too, there were, you know, if you look at the various movements where mass action was taken, it was many years after having, you know, thought about it, having, thought about what kind of action to take against what particular law should we take this action and so on, that eventually they decided to take the routes that they took.
So, you know, number one, it's not always the same kind of action. It depends on the problem that you encounter. There are different ways of dealing with particular problems, so you need to look at the different ways. Not everything doesn't revolve around one kind of way. The second [01:44:00] thing is the commitment If you are not committed to the action, you can become disillusioned very quickly.
And look at our struggle lasted for how many years in South Africa, you know, and in India. And in many countries, it wasn't overnight. Change doesn't come overnight. So you, when you have a commitment, then you carry on until, you know, you have achieved. And if the, even after you have achieved, have you achieved the goal that you were fighting for?
So if you haven't achieved that goal, then your struggle continues. And so, you know, you, you make that commitment to your struggle, and that's, [01:45:00] I think that, that keeps you going. It's, it's the commitment that makes you determined to carry on and gives, gives you the energy, and that doesn't depend on other people.
It doesn't depend on anything else but yourself. That's why finding yourself is very important
It's, Gandhiji always talked about the inner voice. He talked about, you know, getting his own strength, and I think it's a very, Cassie raised the question of religion. He was religious, and therefore he had his daily prayers, but also his own ritual or prayer that he engaged in. Like, he used to [01:46:00] observe silence at times and things like that.
Those are times when you connect with, you know, yourself and you begin to think about things and you begin to... And it gives you strength. It does. I don't know how to explain, but I think that, that is what gives you the strength to carry on Even if there's nobody else around, even if other people have abandoned, you will carry on.
And I think that's what Gandhiji would have done. He would have carried on until he achieved what he wanted to
I think this is very important, Ela. Mm-hmm. Because, like, I- unfortunately, in modernity, religion has been relegated to something as being outdated, and [01:47:00] also a lot of youth movements have seen the abuses of religious institutions, so they've distanced themselves from the richness and productivity of religious tools in transforming self and other.
And all our religious traditions have incredible techniques of recentering ourselves, and- Yeah ... and, as others also express this gratitude, I'm also grateful for you that you keep emphasizing the importance of not one particular religion, but the richness of all our religious traditions in centering ourselves.
And all the tools that sometimes become neglected or marginalized or sidelined in a world that is noisy and competitive and based on, as I say sometimes, on doing and having and not being. And our religious traditions bring us back to the mode of being in the world, rather than just the hustle of constantly acquiring and [01:48:00] achieving, and it is really important to be reminded of that.
So really, thank you so much. here, Renee, Stephanie, are you seeing Renee, is asking about Marshall Rosenberg's approach to nonviolent communication. Ela, are you familiar with, Rosenberg's work on creating nonviolent communication? I've read a few books, but I'm not, you know, can't say I'm, I've, you know, I'm an authority on his work or anything.
I need to be reminded The giraffe and the, the giraffe because the giraffe has the biggest heart and the jackal and how we all... Like, he used to be also, like, in, in a very humble kind of self-deprecating humor, he would say that he had a PhD in the language of the jackal, and how we are raising our children and kind of communicating in the language of the jackal instead of the giraffe.
Because the giraffe, he chose it [01:49:00] as a metaphor for, for the biggest heart among mammals on, on, on Earth, like, on the land, and, and also, like, how the giraffe has kind of, like, sees a perspective from kind of a higher point of view and sees, like, the other side as well. So it's... Yeah, I, like, I'm also not as...
Like, I'm not certified in it, but I've, I'm familiar with it, and I, I'm sure Stephanie can have also add a few points. Miki's, Miki's, one of the world's most famous NVC teachers, and she's here. Oh, wonderful. Okay, so she can, like, have her input in this. Yeah. I, I will say very briefly, that the question is it helpful is a, is a question of helpful for what?
and what I see it as most helpful for is, alongside religion, it spells out a set of practices [01:50:00] that can be really helpful in coming back to essence. And specifically, it's the question of whatever my opinion is, whatever somebody else's opinion is, what are the essential human needs that are giving rise to this opinion?
And if we can connect within ourselves at the level of the needs, it instantly brings us back to life and makes it easier to also see what might be the needs of the other person and then connect at that layer. That's, that's what I'm intending to do in this conversation this evening that I was talking about before.
Ja. Eh, godt ja As I said, I we pray for you and we wish you the best. I think it's very important to connect and understand, you know, that [01:51:00] everyone, you know, has these, sort of experiences and, connecting with other people gives us strength as well
Ela, I wanna thank you so much- Mm-hmm ... for all of your time today. We're coming up to the end of the hour, which is when we had committed to end this. So we created a, a, this community together today, and all of us sharing from our heart and listening as part of a nonviolent practice, sharing, asking questions, and all that you've done to prepare for today, thank you so much.
Afra, thank you so much for, for doing this and helping to, to host. I really appreciate that. And- It's been a privilege and honor to be with Ela and with all of you, and always a [01:52:00] pleasure to work with you, Stephanie. Yeah. How about we end today with- Yeah ... the same way we started, with a minute of silence to, to close out, and then after that we can just express gratitude as we, as we head out.
This will be, shared later too so you can return to it. So let's begin our minute of silence, again, kind of settling in, taking a breath, softening, softening our minds, softening our hearts and our bodies.[01:53:00] [01:54:00]
So may we hold this releasing breath and softness that we're cultivating, along with the firmness of non-violence, for the rest of the day. I'm happy to say that, at least on my end, I started under the cover of what was still the early morning dark skies, and now it's ... there's, the sun is out. So it's a, a metaphor for this call.
Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you, Ela. Thank you, Afra. Thank you. Very nice to be here. Thank you. Thanks, everyone, and wish all of you the best, yeah. Thanks, Priyanka.[01:55:00]
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your presence, all of you. Thank you. Bye. Beautiful presentation.